Moving Past Cancel Culture: An Interview with Dr. Tim Muehlhoff on Meaningful Conversations
Kyle Patterson: Welcome to the podcast. Today, I’m thrilled to introduce our special guest, Dr. Tim Muehlhoff of Biola University. Dr. Muehlhoff is a renowned author, communication expert, and professor with a deep passion for fostering meaningful dialogue. He has dedicated his career to exploring the intersections of communication and culture. Dr. Muehlhoff has co-authored a timely and thought-provoking new book, “The End of the Stalemate: Moving Past Cancel Culture to Meaningful Conversations,” alongside Dr. Sean McDowell. In this book, they tackle the pressing issue of cancel culture and provide practical guidance on how to engage in constructive conversations, even with those who hold fundamentally different perspectives. In addition to his work as an author, Dr. Muehlhoff is actively involved with Biola’s Winsome Conviction Project, which aims to promote respect in public discourse. Recently, he and Dr. McDowell hosted “The End of the Stalemate Challenge,” a live virtual event that provided participants with tools to navigate challenging conversations and foster genuine understanding. It’s an honor to have Dr. Muehlhoff with us today to share his insights and wisdom on how we can all move past the divisiveness of cancel culture and embrace meaningful conversations. Please join me in welcoming Dr. Muehlhoff to the podcast. It’s great to have you here today, Dr. Muehlhoff. I’m excited to get into this conversation. Can you start by sharing the inspiration behind “The End of the Stalemate”? What motivated you to write the book, particularly at this cultural moment in time?
Dr. Tim Muehlhoff: Well, Kyle, I think there’s a misperception that Americans don’t agree with each other on much. But let me tell you one area that Americans overwhelmingly agree on. Based on a Pew Research Study, 98%—hear me when I say that, 98%—of Americans agree that incivility is a threat to this country. 67% would say that we’re at crisis levels of incivility. I feel that as well. Like I’m with the majority that we just can’t continue participating in what Deborah Tannen, a Georgetown linguist, calls the “Argument Culture,” where we want to shut each other down. The question we need to ask, Kyle, is, at this cultural moment, is the church going to offer an alternative? Or will we be like everybody else, in the way we talk to each other on social media, the way we disagree with each other? Is that just like everybody else, or can the church step up and do what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount: “Blessed are the peacemakers”? So I think the church has a decision to make. Are we going to speak truth but do it in love, regardless of how we’re being treated? Peter says, “When insulted, I want you to bless instead.” I think the church needs to think long and hard about our communication style, not just our content.
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Kyle Patterson: Wow, that’s good. Let’s talk about cancel culture as a whole. It’s a relatively new concept that has invaded our culture. How do you define it, and what are some of the main issues and problems with it in today’s society? What’s perpetuating it?
Dr. Tim Muehlhoff: There are many definitions of cancel culture. The one we use in the book “The End of the Stalemate” is about shutting down the conversation instead of having it. It’s thinking your position is so egregious that I’m not even going to allow you to have a platform to share your ideas. I don’t need to engage your ideas because I’ve already determined on the front end that your ideas are offensive or beyond the pale.
We’re simply saying that’s not what we need to be doing.
We’ve lost the art of perspective-taking, where I stop long enough to see the world through your perspective and feel the emotions of that. We need to have productive conversations where we can disagree without worrying about physical safety. Berkeley, just down the street from Biola University, has said they don’t invite conservative speakers because they literally cannot guarantee their safety. Cancel culture can lead to this kind of danger—reputational or even physical attacks.
Let me just say, Kyle, this isn’t just a problem for non-Christians. Christians have our own version of cancel culture. When it comes to critical race theory, preferred pronouns, or mask mandates, we’ve seen churches literally split, saying, “I don’t want anything to do with you.” We have a podcast called The Winsome Conviction Podcast, and we had Arthur Brooks, a Harvard researcher, on the show. He said America doesn’t have an anger problem; we have a contempt problem. Contempt means I’m angry at you, and I don’t care if we ever talk again. After the 2016 presidential election, 33% of respondents said they no longer talk to a family member. That’s contempt. We need to move away from that. It’s okay to be angry; there’s even righteous anger. But we’ve got to stop this tribalism that says, “I only hang out with people who see the world the way I do,” and despising—not just disagreeing with—other groups. That’s what we’re trying to call into question with our book “End of the Stalemate.”
Kyle Patterson: That’s good. The subtitle of “The End of the Stalemate” is “Move Past Cancel Culture to Meaningful Conversations.” Let’s talk about that a bit. What do you mean by meaningful conversations, and why do you believe they’re so crucial in our current polarized environment?
Dr. Tim Muehlhoff: By meaningful conversations, we don’t mean that people will just agree with each other. There needs to be a structure that we know heading in we’re going to adhere to. Anyone who’s married or has kids knows what it’s like to step into a conversation without a game plan of how this conversation is going to go and then realize five minutes in that the conversation has done damage, taking five steps backward. Meaningful conversations are where people adhere to a structure.
We offer a four-part structure in the book to organize a conversation. Meaningful means maybe we walk away disagreeing, but we see each other’s perspective. We need to practice having hard conversations. But where do you go to practice? If I have it with my wife, kids, or students, once you have the conversation, you’ve had it, and danger could be that you’ve done some damage. So, we’ve created a website called endthestalemate.com. It’s totally free, and you can practice having hard conversations by yourself. You can yell at the computer screen, “I disagree with you,” but it won’t hurt any relationship. The first topic we address is politics because of the upcoming presidential election. You’ll listen to two articulate Christians—one saying, “There’s no way you can read your Bible and vote for President Trump,” and the other saying, “Read your Bible, and you’ll see why you should vote for President Trump.” We ask you to prepare your heart to listen to both, because Jesus said, “From the heart you speak.” We then teach you a four-part strategy to work through with both speakers. The website is endthestalemate.com. You can check it out and feel free to yell at your computer screen. It’ll be okay.
Kyle Patterson: That is so important, especially in this election cycle, for Christians to really take the lead on this, to have these conversations and agree to disagree peacefully. Can you talk about a time in your own life where you faced the challenge of cancel culture and overcame it? How did this experience shape your perspective on the need for the book today?
Dr. Tim Muehlhoff: All my graduate education was at secular universities, which I absolutely loved. But you quickly become aware of what’s off limits to talk about. Think about that—I’m at a top university, but there’s clearly a list of things you’re not allowed to say. Every university has this, even Biola University. For example, at UNC Chapel Hill, you could talk about spirituality, but not say that your religion has the truth. I’m a Christian; I believe Jesus when He says, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” But saying that your religion is true is off limits because it judges other religions. It took thoughtful planning to get to the point where we could talk about what is truth. So, not all conversations are equal. Some will take more planning and preparation to create the structure to have them. The book of Proverbs says, “A word spoken in the right circumstances is compared to fine jewelry.” We have to create those circumstances. Otherwise, you could get canceled because people cannot understand how you would believe something they find so offensive. So, we need to go slow with some topics based on the person we’re talking to.
Kyle Patterson: That’s really good. Let’s talk about listening. The Bible talks about being quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger. How can someone improve their listening skills, especially when they strongly disagree with someone?
Dr. Tim Muehlhoff: Kyle, I’m going to sound like a broken record—practice, practice, practice. The book of Proverbs says, “A wise man overlooks an insult.” That’s really hard to do when you’re listening. My emotional button gets pushed, and I’m done with listening. I jump in to defend myself and my position. We have to practice listening to stuff that pushes our emotional buttons. In the book, we teach a technique called breath prayer. While listening to someone defend a topic I think is egregious, I pray the entire time: “God, give me patience. Make me a good listener. Help me overlook insults.” The only way to do that is practice. We’ve also created a website called winsomeconviction.com. We have the best tips on listening: how to be quick to listen and slow to anger. But you have to practice to get better at listening, or you’ll just get emotionally hijacked.
Kyle Patterson: I know you mentioned social media. Let’s talk about that for a minute. That how do you see the role of social media in both perpetuating canceled culture and potentially fostering meaningful conversations, any advice on navigating these online interactions?
Dr. Tim Muehlhoff: So I agree with Secretary Clinton, that the internet is the new public square, whether we like it or not, the internet is where a lot of Americans go to talk about this. So I don’t think we can just say we’re done with the internet. I think it’s here to stay. So I do think the principles we share in the book can be used online, it’s just going to make it harder. Sean (McDowell / co-author of End the Stalemate) is present everywhere on social media. His YouTube channel has over 360,000 followers, he’s on Instagram. He’s doing everything. And he does it in a really nice way. I think he’s a good role model. So I think we can use social media in a certain way, we’re just gonna have to resist that quick response that social media tends to give life to. I better pray before I hit send off for that comment, post that Instagram. I better think before I send off that tweet. And again, this is all goes back to the heart. But if I’m not in the right disposition, then it doesn’t matter if it’s in social media or face to face. My My attitude is not right. That’s why Paul says, Kyle, I want you to put off these things, right? Anger, malice. And I want you to put on kindness, love. Well, that put off put on process is a deeply spiritual process that we all need to learn how to do. And we give suggestions in the book about how do you work on putting on the fruit of the Spirit, and putting off the fruit of the flesh.
Kyle Patterson: Last question. Before, before any final thoughts? I wanted to just kind of get your idea for kind of the vision of the future more people adopt the principles in this in your book and the stalemate and how do you hope this global impact society at large?
Dr. Tim Muehlhoff: You know, we’re seeing amazing things happen at the grassroots level. On our podcast, the Winsome Conviction Podcast, we have a great segment called people doing it right. And Kyle, this is still live, ordinary people reaching out to neighbors. They disagree with church members decided to come back together. So unfortunately, it doesn’t make the national news, although I shouldn’t be so quick to say that there’s a group of governors Democrat and Republican governors have started this initiative called, Disagree Better Initiative. So we are seeing a little bit at the national level. But I’m hoping that grassroots level is that families can have more civil conversations, church members can have more civil conversations, and neighbors can have more civil disagreements. So I think we, we can’t change Capitol Hill. We just don’t have that kind of influence. But we can really change how our family views civility and speaking truth and love. So I do think on the grassroots level, we’re seeing some really cool stuff happening.
And I, I would just encourage our listeners, what’s the next step you can take with a person you disagree with? That could be offering a compliment to that person, it could be calling that person and and apologizing, it could be just getting together for coffee, just to open lines of communication. You’re not even talking about the issue that separates you, we’re just going to have coffee, because it’s been a long time, since we got together had coffee and just enjoyed each other and are present. So I think God wants us to take the next step. They’re not always big, dramatic conversations. But small things can really lead to larger things.
Kyle Patterson: I think of the quote by Mother Teresa, I think she said, “If you want to change the world, go home and love your family.” And it brings up a great point that it really starts in our families and then it can perpetuate out through culture. Talking about this is great. Great word of wisdom. Any final thoughts?
Dr. Tim Muehlhoff: Remember, we’re Christian communicators. So yes, we studied communication like everybody else, but we believe in the power of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit can cut through even the deepest defenses. It can cut through the acrimonious culture. When the Spirit of God moves, it can really capture people’s hearts. Now it probably needs to start with me. I need to take my heart like King David, God searched my own heart. But the cool thing is, while a relationship might seem like it’s past repair, with God’s Spirit, we know no relationship is past God repairing it. So I think we can have confidence as Christians and maybe people outside the Christian community don’t have because we ultimately trust in the power of the Spirit.
Kyle Patterson: Absolutely. Dr. Muehlhoff, thank you so much for your time today, for your wisdom, for your insight. This has been a fantastic conversation. I know our listeners are going to be blessed by it, and they’re going to learn so much from you. So thank you for being with us today.
Dr. Tim Muehlhoff: Kyle, it was an honor. Thanks for having me.
